Buying "Advice"

Technical

Buying "Advice"

Following are some selected emails that were posted on the CSR email list when people inquired as to what to look for when considering a coupe purchase
From:Art WegweiserSent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 10:59 AM To:Thomas_Tang@ernstyoung.com.auSubject: Advices on shopping for a Csi

Here ya go Thomas. From Volume XV of the CSR newsletter. (Lots more good stuff in there too - back to 1981 - Join us?)

BTW - Obvious, but do keep in mind parts for left hand drive Coupes are a lot easier to find - The main sources being Europe and North America. Otherwise you may have to deal with folks in Japan, the UK and (horrors) - your own countrymen. :-)

Our Favorite Topic: "RUST"
Marty Roach
The information below refers specifically to evaluating before buying an East Coast coupe but is true for all CS's to some extent. This list is by no means all-inclusive and it paints a grim picture but a CS buyer has to know what they are looking at. I am NOT an expert but this letter contains a lot of hard earned and expensive knowledge. In the past 8 months, it has saved three people from buying nightmares. I wish I had had it....

a) Mechanically - simple and cheap, it's a Bavaria. Cracked head? no problem - any big six motor (+ drive train) will fit. Zenith carbs are troublesome but they can be replaced. Proven power train upgrades are readily available.
b) Cosmetically - pricey. trim pieces are $$$$$$$. It is a seller's market for parts.

c) Structurally - Depending on where you live, the CS can be slightly rusty, rusty, extremely rusty, or unsafe. Rust free? Hmmmmmm.

Restored? pictures and references.

Places to look for rot: (in descending order of importance)

1. A-Pillars - Vitally important. Visually follow the A-pillar (door hinges) downward towards the junction of the A-pillar, floor, and rocker panel. At the front of the rocker, these all come together and make a thick sandwich. Don't be surprised if this area is rusty. A-pillar repairs are costly because each layer of the sandwich has to be removed, repaired, and replaced individually.
2. ROCKER PANELS - Car has no B-pillar so rockers hold the car together. (Note: you need to remove the black rocker covers to see the outer rockers.) Three layers of steel: -Inner: 16 ga. vertical piece, runs lengthwise, attached to floor. -Middle: 16 ga. stamped structural steel. -Outer rocker cover (not the black decor panel).

CS's collect dirt and have marginal drainage at best. Rockers fill with silt and rot from the inside out. If the outer rocker cover is rusty, inside will probably be an expensive mess. You can blow big money on rocker panel repair but it is a fact of life with most CS coupes.

(Editor's note: yaddada yaddada - some of you will recognize this litany from me, as well. Listen to these words, he's right! CRUSH IT! OK. You won't crush it, then fix it, please. We all understand your addiction)

Don't be surprised to see rust bubbles on the first and last 4-6" of the outer rocker covers. Mud/debris gets trapped inside the rockers and rots away the inner, intermediate, and outer rockers at both ends of the car. Check both ends of the rockers: around both jack points. Rear - get underneath and poke around where the rear sub frame is bolted on.

3. SHOCK TOWERS - Look around where the strut attaches and there is a big brace with a hole in it. Poke around with a screwdriver. Water collects and rusts the car away. $$$$$$$$$$. Check the little "cave" - rust will come out on top on the inner fender, mud screen (follow the imaginary flight of road spray) and the vertical piece that is parallel to the tire (under cave and under brace). Open fuse box door, use flashlight to inspect. Open glove box and look to left hand side. Possible $$$$$$$$$ Rust!(continued)
4. FENDERS - Fat top area, also: inner seam where fender attaches to the inner fenders. Look for bondo in both places. Finally, look at the first 10" from the bottom up to the plastic grill, both sides of car. Fenders are $600 per side and have to be installed by a competent body man.

3. FLOORS - Check the area in the front corner of the each front floor - this is where floors, rockers, and shock towers intersect. Lift carpets - (F&R) look where the 5" circular plugs are.

4. TRUNK - Look at rear quarters, behind wheels. Trunk floor, spare tire area, shock towers (cracks at top), rear panel at welded seam (from underneath), gas tank - rotted frame.

Look at the car on a lift - use a flashlight and screwdriver. (Editor's note: We can't possibly reiterate how *important* it is to do this!) Multiply visible rust by a factor of 5 or 6. CS's are NOT cheap cars. I don't know everything but I have learned a lot in the past year disassembling three cars. These cars are gorgeous but they are a horrible impulse purchase I know. (Editor's note: don't we all?) unless they are cheap. Chances are, you'll pay the money up front at purchase for a clean car, or down the road if you buy a "cheap" rust bucket. Don't pay too much at both ends.

This communication contains information which is confidential and available only to serious and committed BMW CS Coupe (pre-1976) owners or seekers so as to provide a source of therapy and treatment for their serious and chronic condition of potential mental instability.

Although this information is not protected by international copyright, we have our ways of detecting unauthorized use and staff personnel stand ready at all times to clarify our policies with baseball bats.

If you are not the intended recipient of this communication please delete and destroy all copies and telephone my Uncle Guido in Palermo.

--

=00= =00= =00= =00= =00= =00= =00= =00= =00= =00= =00= Art Wegweiser, BMWCCA Member #12163 Registrar, BMW CS Registry, USAart@bmwcsregistry.orghttp://www.bmwcsregistry.org

Ilse 72 3.0CSi 2 262 736 Fjord & Polaris Neu La Dauphine 75 3.0CSi 4 340 781 Granatrot metallic Gretel 95 E36M3 ..EH06546 Arctic Silver

-----Original Message----- From:Chris SheltonSent: Friday, March 03, 2000 12:18 PM Subject: RE: Body Work

First off, I'm not writing this to depress people. It is only what I have discovered through experience and is my opinion only.

The first thing to consider is what you want your body work to accomplish. If the job is not done right the first time (i.e. expensive), then you will be repeating the work every few years.

Keep in mind how difficult these cars are to restore. So many of the qualities which make the BMW Coupe such an elegant and unique automobile also make them an owners nightmare They are effectively hand made and were constructed in relatively limited quantities. This makes some parts difficult to obtain and most components very expensive. Worse still is that the body design dates back to the early sixties, when considerations like cost of labor and manufacturing efficiency didn't rate as highly as today. The body shell is constructed exclusively of welded stampings. I don't know how many individual pieces of metal are in an E9 shell, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were a couple of hundred. Every single one of them is welded in place; even the fenders. I think a Coupe owner should have a Doctorate in Weldology before tackling their own bodywork.

By the time the rust is visible on a CS, it's near terminal. I don't see how you will be able to cheaply and effectively repair your car. Rust inhibitors and chemicals won't work because they will never be able to get to all the rust. There are folds, boxes and cavities beyond number in an E9. Pastes, fillers and inhibitors can only hide the problem. It will continue to rust underneath and the car will eventually become unsafe. My opinion is that it is not possible to repair an E9 permanently without spending lots of money.

The fenders must come off to properly assess the situation in the front wheel wells. There are a bunch of pieces in the wells, welded to form the torque box which can still be obtained at a reasonable cost. The costly bits are the fenders and the inner skins (if they're still available). It strikes me that you may have to have work done to your A post too, if the rust has gone behind the covering plate. The rocker cover is cosmetic only. It will also need to be removed to get a good look in behind at the structure itself. Each side comprises three large pieces, which together give the car most of its bending strength. I had the body of my car mounted on a custom made frame, to ensure the shell remained straight and that all dimensions could be confirmed as factory correct.

The work needn't necessarily compromise the structural integrity, but if you are going to have much work done on the rockers or inner fenders I'd make sure the shop is reputable. If this part of the job gets buggered up, you're left with expensive junk. Get references and follow them up. Talking to Carl was a good start. Try Maximillian too. It strikes me that your quote my be a little shy of what it will actually cost to bring your car up to snuff. I spent many many times that amount on mine. Yes, I wanted the best, but most folks familiar with restoration will be honest about where diminishing returns set in.

Coupes are not a car for the masses. You must love yours unconditionally and be prepared to do what is required. The car will not reward half measures. You cannot think of these cars as anything approaching an investment. It will always be like the thing is vacuuming the money out of your wallet. But, there are compensations, if you're an old BMW type of person.

Chris Shelton

-----Original Message----- From:drobinsSent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 9:34 PM Subject: Body Work

Group,

I have a 73 cs 3.0, 4sp, AC. The car was recently passed to me so I am in the process of evaluating it as a keeper or not before I start putting money into it. The records show a good deal of mechanical maintenance was done, some minor stuff like the power steering pump is leaking, it needs a new main seal, and the guibos (sp?) are basically gone. Car runs great, starts right up no problems. The interior is in great shape, but the body is not good in a few places.

Need some general advice from your experience on this.

Paint is shot but not the greatest worry will need to be taken all the way down, minor dents repaired. Bumpers need work especially mounting brackets. The car has rusted out panels behind the front wheel wells. The outer panels under the doors are a little rough as well. The area of greatest concern is the inner fender on the right front side. Starting about 10 inches behind the shock tower and extending up just past the firewall into the windshield well is a rusty hole/area of various width. Had a reputable body shop give a $1600-3000 est. on the rust repair ('Just don't know until we get into it"), and $3200 on the paint if the car was rolled in with all the trim on, etc. He recommended looking for replacement panels to cut down on labor costs of doing fabrication type repairs, doing some prep work myself, like trim removal, all stuff that I would do. I have talked with Carl on panel prices so I have an idea on that cost bogey.

Question is how does the entire panel cutting that needs to be done effect these cars? I am not looking for a concourse restoration but if I do this I would like to have a car that's still straight .I also have it in the back of my mind that I may win the battle but not the war. Although the body guys didn't think any other areas were a problem, does anyone have experience with the rust stop products the old Porsche restoration guys' use? Is any of this panel work something that can be done by the amateur with supervision; I have friends who teach welding, etc. So short of buying a 25k new body from the factory, Carls first suggestion, what has been the groups experience in degree of difficulty in doing it right, realistic costs expectations in round numbers, doable in my garage parts vs. not doable or don't even try tasks, etc.

Sorry for such a long winded note, Derek 73 3.0cs Seabrook, TX

Following is the "Another Candidate for Madness" thread - an interesting series of emails that touch on a number of points of view:

-----Original Message----- From:jokitverSent: Monday, July 13, 1998 7:32 AM Subject: The Madness for CS coupes.

Dear fellow-CS owners - and prospective owners

Your comments on the pro's and con's of owning a CS are very interesting and, as a newcomer, I would like (very hesitantly) to drop my pebble into the pond.

We here in Johannesburg have very little trouble from rust but friends down at the coast do have the tin worm there - and badly too.

Even apart from rust - CS coupes are not cheap to maintain or restore and anyone who tries to find a good, cheap CS will search for a long time. It is also definitely not an investment and you will come short if you try to restore them for reselling at a profit - even here where there is little rust.

But is it a matter of cost or is it the pleasure of owning one? My old CS has cost me more that it is really worth but I have such fun just driving it - and I don't even race it - just the occasional classic rally (competitive - but very few good navigators in the 3-litre class - most fall in the 1.5 to 2 litre classes). It collects admiring looks from passersby. "What a beautiful car" "Such wonderful lines" "Lots of power!" Drive up behind a truck and the workers nearly fall off the back craning to look at the car. Stop for petrol (gas to you folks!) and the attendant comes running to my door, smile with white teeth from ear to ear "O, I forgot again. This is the leftie" (Referring to the left-hand drive. Here we drive on the correct side of the road - not the right!)

If you have to worry about what it will cost you to restore or own a CS then think carefully - especially if, like me, you are a retired schoolteacher. But if you have one, the pleasure it will give you far outweighs the cost and the financial burden. It is a wonderful design - far nicer than the 6-series CS's which look too much like the sedans. Lots of performance. Just listen to the sound from under the bonnet (hood to you folks!) when you put your foot down. Good road holding and exceptionally well engineered. Where my old 3.8 S Jaguar is a stately gentleman's carriage with more than a fair turn of speed, my CS sometimes makes me feel like a hooligan - and then I do a little wheelspin when I leave the shopping center! Just for fun!

I won't ever sell my CS. When I get too old for it one of my sons & perhaps even my daughter would almost certainly love to take it over.

So my advice to Andy is simple: If you want one, buy one, but be prepared for lots of unexpected tribulations. But in the end , if you love good cars, it will be worth it.

Cheers

Johann

-----Original Message----- From:maroachSent: Sunday, July 12, 1998 8:43 AM To: Marilyn Wegweiser Cc:Chris SheltonSubject: Re: Another candidate for madness

You left out what else I said, Marty. I said something about people who bought them to make money and had the necessary skills to *HIDE* the shitty way they patched them in a hurry. It *COSTS* to do a car right. We all know that. Each person does the best they can to make the car right for what they are going to do with it. An honest person tells the prospective buyer what still needs to be done, or redone.

--I ain't attacking you, dear. You are the CS Popette. Just don't argue with me about who won WWII.

The price of a nice Coupe is supposedly the same as it was in 1985 at the peak of the vintage car "speculators" market. There were many cars redone at that time. Many of them are still nice.

As with 2002's, CS's are getting to the point that not only the metal needs to be replaced, but also every single piece of rubber is shot. Wiring harnesses are usually not far behind. It does not make "sense" in purely economic terms, to spend $10k to fix a $5k car.

Supply of vintage cars is dwindling but the prices are holding steady. (soft market).

skills, schmills. Bondo + D/A sander + Tabco patch panels + rivets + decent paint = 2 year bondo buggy.

But IN MY OPINION if someone is slabbing the car together with *profit making* in mind, then they are nothing but a cretin and their reputation will eventually catch up with them.

--To be sure. Professional restorers don't make a ton of money to begin with. If the stock market takes a bath or there is a recession, the "toy" gets put on the shelf. Only the cream of the restorers stick around in the long term.

You're probably close. IN MY OPINION the best way to buy a coupe is to find a "divorce car". It usually has to leave home in a hurry and at least one party of the pair is willing to take an offer on it. We own two.

---A sentimental altruist feeding off the symptoms of a dysfunctional society! Why the hell didn't I think of that? To think that I claim to be a cynical pragmatist. Foiled again.

Rusty Galore

-----Original Message----- From: Marilyn Wegweise Sent: Sunday, July 12, 1998 8:31 AM To:maroach@ix.netcom.comCc:Chris SheltonSubject: Re: Another candidate for madness

Remember - this is just my opinion, so IN MY OPINION: The stuff about an east coast car being rust prone may have been true a decade ago. Today, that is simply not always the case. Why? Excuse me, but when was the *last time* any of you saw an E9 out for cruise in the winter time getting a bath in road salt?
*That's what I thought.*

The dozen junkyard coupes I have seen had second-rate patch jobs done and the cars were driven until they literally cracked in half.

My point exactly. They either got repaired, or they are in the junkyard. If it is that rusty, as Carl Nelson says "CRUSH IT". But strip it of useful parts first, OK?

The majority of coupes in this area, IMO, had a half-assed resto in the mid '80's when selling prices were high. A half-assed resto can actually accelerate deterioration of a borderline car.

You left out what else I said, Marty. I said something about people who bought them to make money and had the necessary skills to *HIDE* the shitty way they patched them in a hurry. It *COSTS* to do a car right. We all know that. Each person does the best they can to make the car right for what they are going to do with it. An honest person tells the prospective buyer what still needs to be done, or redone.

But IN MY OPINION if someone is slabbing the car together with *profit making* in mind, then they are nothing but a cretin and their reputation will eventually catch up with them.

The best way to buy a CS is to find a nice guy whose wife is expecting or needs to make a down payment on a house. Buy his perfect car, and, sad to say, he'll get $0 for his labor AND lose the opportunity cost on the money.

You're probably close. IN MY OPINION the best way to buy a coupe is to find a "divorce car". It usually has to leave home in a hurry and at least one party of the pair is willing to take an offer on it. We own two.

Marilyn W.

---Original Message----- From:maroachSent: Saturday, July 11, 1998 8:54 AM To: Chris Shelton Subject: Re: Another candidate for madness

Hello Gruppe!
As the latest to have succumbed to madness..... I may as well put in my two cents worth. Remember - this is just my opinion, so IN MY OPINION: The stuff about an east coast car being rust prone may have been true a decade ago. Today, that is simply not always the case. Why? Excuse me, but when was the *last time* any of you saw an E9 out for cruise in the winter time getting a bath in road salt?

*That's what I thought.*

--I have seen four roadworthy coupes in New Jersey in the last 3 years. Two fall in the $15-18k category. The others have nice paint and a lot of thick rustproofing in some area prone to rust.

Coupes are prone to rusting and despite the fact that the original buyers were very well heeled and had them garaged, MOST of them are now gone due to rust.

The majority of coupes in this area, IMO, had a half-assed resto in the mid '80's when selling prices were high. A half-assed resto can actually accelerate deterioration of a borderline car.

The dozen junkyard coupes I have seen had second-rate patch jobs done and the cars were driven until they literally cracked in half.

Most of the people interested in CS's are in their mid to late 30's. Leisure time is at a premium. We are (probably) on our second or third "project" car. We just don't have 200 free hours at our disposal.

The best way to buy a CS is to find a nice guy whose wife is expecting or needs to make a down payment on a house. Buy his perfect car, and, sad to say, he'll get $0 for his labor AND lose the opportunity cost on the money.

MArty

-----Original Message----- From: Marilyn Wegweiser Sent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 6:22 PM Subject: RE: Another candidate for madness

And... when it's all said and done. nobody buys an E9 to make money on it, unless they can hide what they've done so skillfully you'll never notice.

Chris is right. We put them back together because we love driving them, or just looking at them. We have way more in them than they are worth, right now.

And ya know what? WHO CARES! We *love* driving our coupes.

High Five, Chris!

Marilyn W.

-----Original Message----- From:Dale B. PhelpsSent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 6:08 PM To: Chris Shelton Subject: Re: Another candidate for madness and Parts FS

Well all,

I do not presume to be getting the last word in, but for what it is worth, here are MY thoughts:

1) if you have to pay for the work, get a car that is finished rather than one that needs finishing.
2) a rust-bucket CAN be done for reasonable dollars, but only if you do not bill yourself for your own time <g>

3) I will confirm the rumors that the rust bucket I am presently playing with is a 73 CSi, really poor rockers, rotten front and rear fenders, rot on the upper part of the inner front fenders, and it needs a couple of floor section repair panels. That said, and given the fact that I swapped for the car, complete, straight up for a rust-free '02 that I had 6 bills into, the things that are helping to underwrite the expenses include the following:

3a) I sold the perfect dash... got 500 worth of trade parts for it, this took care of the motorsport dash and front air dam.
3b) I plan to sell the complete FI system (hint hint) this will provide another 500 or so for "mad money"

3c) I had to buy 2 grand of someone's NOS sheet metal stash to get the pieces I need to redo all the rot, but this got me some extra pieces which were good as swaps to get the roof hoop, rear bumper, and Batwing.

3d) B2-S induction@1500, ZF 5-speed@1000, 3.5 liter from my garage

4) with some more finagling, and I hope to actually start serious work on the car soon. If there is enough interest I would be happy to post progress photos, including all rust repair work on the/a website. Thank goodness I wanna do this flying bat/alpina replica in silver.... and that POR-15 comes in silver! <$$$+++>

5) If someone twists my arm, I will keep a running record of total cost and time, but only because I am single...no spousal unit would stand for this madness (unless Marilyn has a sister <g>)

6) enquiries for spare odds and ends are welcome! * quarter windows and motors, door glass, the FI, * a getrag 4-speed, good front and rear chrome bumpers, * and rear lower bumper extensions

Regards to all,

DPh

-----Original Message----- From:Chris SheltonSent: Thursday, July 09, 1998 12:21 PM Subject: RE: Another candidate for madness

Greetings

Does my tardy response give me the last word?

I've learned, the hard way, that buying a rusty CS may be an exhilarating project, but it makes no financial sense.

* If you can see rust on an E9, multiply it... oh, maybe 5 times to estimate the true extent of the rot.

* If you purchase a CS needing body work, formulate a realistic budget and multiply that several times. It's not unrealistic to spend LOTS more than your car will be worth.

* If you decide to purchase a project car, ensure you have the commitment to continue follow through to the end. Wimping out in mid-process costs lots and you don't have a nice car to show for it either.

I'm not intending to discourage any neophytes out there.

Chris

-----Original Message----- From: Marilyn Wegweiser Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 7:29 AM To: Michael Thompson Cc:design1@santacruzind.comSubject: Re: Another Candidate for Madness

Michael, and Others,

When you find a CS, do a realistic budget<SNIP> If you get obsessive-compulsive like Marilyn the budget better be big.

I don't take offense to this, but, it is rather cheeky of you to imply that you have even a glimmer of an idea of what or how much my realistic budget is, compared to say, yours. You are forgiven for going a little over a border, this AM, Michael. <smiley alert>

I will add these comments:

Art & I drive the living snot out of our cars.

I picked up the "Princess" and took her directly to Watkins Glen. Ask all the other drivers. Ask Wynne Smith if we are known to drive our cars & she knew before I got back that my throttle stuck wide open coming out of turn 7 on Saturday. That was her shake down cruise. Oh, yeah. I did put the required 1000 kilometers on that totally overhauled engine, first. I got a ride in Markus Glarner'sfabulousCSL race car, too, people. I took my video camera along for the ride. I haven't had time to watch it yet. Might have to show that on July 16th......

Once the car is in concours condition, it is relatively easy to keep it that way. All it takes is time. I clean them once a week. Ask anyone who has visited us. The cars get used and they get filthy. Then, they get cleaned. The reason they look the way they still do is that I don't cheat them when I clean them - and I allow myself loads of time to do it.

For those of you that don't know this - the red coupe is my Edinboro PA -Columbus OH commuter car. Even right now. She's out in the Ohio Union parking garage, in a *very* safe space. That's right, she gets 500 highway miles/week.

In 1999, she's going in "the One Lap" of America. I met Brock Yates at the Glen. She will be in Vintage European and it will be an all ladies team. See ya at Las Vegas Intl. Speedway, folks. I've already checked out the track. [SNICKER! True.]

So. Don't imply that one restores a car and doesn't drive it. We put about 13k miles/year on Ilse. I can tell you that using a car to commute will put double that on it.

I love driving that coupe. It's easy. I understand it. It's a simple car. So simple, I *STILL* haven't found out why the gas gauge level indicator isn't working! [sheesh]

Stone chips? Yes. She'll get them. So what? No big deal. How to deal with them? My body shop loves me, I'll ask when the time comes to spot paint her.

If I buy another coupe (and I want a Batmobile) Art may begin to consider becoming single [SNICKER] but..... DUDE! Wouldn't a Batmobile be *killer* in Faculty Parking?

MDW

-----Original Message----- From: Marilyn Wegweiser Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 7:10 AM To:jokitverSubject: Re: Another candidate for madness

Hello Gruppe!

As the latest to have succumbed to madness..... I may as well put in my two cents worth.

Remember - this is just my opinion, so IN MY OPINION:

The stuff about an east coast car being rust prone may have been true a decade ago. Today, that is simply not always the case. Why? Excuse me, but when was the *last time* any of you saw an E9 out for cruise in the winter time getting a bath in road salt?

*That's what I thought.*

Unless you are buying a car that hasn't already been to the body shop once, you are buying a car that somebody cared enough about to repair. If you are buying a car that is a "3k project car" you are out of your mind. As my friend Carl Nelson would say "Crush it". I'll add to that "STRIP IT AND CRUSH IT".

Whatever you spend on the car you will immediately turn around and sink back in to it. Within the first year.

I have sent our Webmeister digital photos of my "Red Queen" or "Princess" (now that she's restored, she's more of a Princess) undergoing fender replacement. She was honestly a very clean coupe. She honestly didn't have much rust, and that is the reason we took her down to the metal. Not because we are crazy, but because we are crazy. It was less expensive in both time and money <and it STILL cost out the wazoo> to do the car correctly now than to do it correctly later. Think about it.

If you can see any rust, no matter how minimal, take it orders of magnitude more underneath. Enough said. Then, if you are going to restore the car, don't cheat the car.

Like Dennis Miller says, "that's just my opinion, I could be wrong".

Marilyn W.

-----Original Message----- From:Michael ThompsonSent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 6:43 AM Cc:design1@santacruzind.comSubject: Re: Another Candidate for Madness

The biggest problem with the CS is rust. Mechanical, interior, and paint repairs are easy and inexpensive compared to combating rust damage.

Take the time to learn where the CS is prone to rust; rear shock towers, rocker panels, front fenders, fire wall. In hindsight I would buy a CS from the west or southwest so it would have minimal rust.

When you find a CS, do a realistic budget to restore it to acceptable condition. This group and several parts suppliers can help you with repair and part prices. If you get obsessive-compulsive like Marilyn the budget better be big.

If you are not going to do the repairs yourself, find someone that you can trust before you buy a CS.

Drive it. I don't drive mine enough so the rear muffler only lasted 10,000 miles and 16 years. It really is a pleasure to drive. It doesn't handle as well or ride as smoothly as my 325iS, but my 325iS never turns heads like the CS.

Take it to an Oktoberfest. It is really great to see other CS and their owners. Check outhttp://users.ids.net/~thompson/bmw/bmw.htmlfor our last CS gathering at the Oktoberfest.

Keep in touch with this group. There is a wealth of information and moral support available.

Recently I've been beginning seriously consider finding a CS coupe of my own, and I was hoping you could point me in the direction of any information that would help me to become informed enough to buy intelligently (I've done otherwise in the past!). I'm interested in anything that would give me history, maintenance info, and a sense of what to look out for mechanically. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks, Andy Dehus

Michael Thompson

-----Original Message----- From:jokitverSent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 2:33 AM To: cscoupe@ncinter.net Subject: Re: Another candidate for madness

Greetings, everybody!

I have had such an avalanche of wonderful suggestions, advice and comments in response to my queries about modifications to my 3.0 CS that I suppose I should do my bit as well! Thanks to all of you.

Andy,

The British magazine "Classic and Sports Car" of June 1995 had an excellent article about buying a CS coupe. Mentions all the things to look out for, suppliers of parts (British, of course), books, guides, etc. The magazine's address for back numbers or reprints is HAYMARKET REPRINTS, PO Box 200, ABINGDON, Oxon OX14 3FG, England. You could also try the US subscription agent Eastern News Distributors Inc., 250 West 55th Street, New York.

Reading all the dire warnings makes me want to quote the concluding paragraph of this article

CONCLUSION

Buying a CS with a sound body is vitally important, as the mechanical side of the car is relatively trouble-free and can be sorted as you go along. Serious rust will keep the car off the road for months and dig deep into your bank account due to the labour-intensive, coach-built nature of the car's construction. The total restoration of a rotten coupe, even the more valuable CSL, makes no financial sense because the prices of the cars themselves are still so low. Keep on top of the tor and these coupes make more sense than most complex 70's exotics: fast but not thirsty they will keep on going even when mechanically quite tired because they were properly, and expensively, engineered in the first place. We often talk glibly about the "usability" of older cars but these pretty, potent coupes truly have it.

Reading all this makes me very happy that I live in Johannesburg, 5000 feet above sea level, dry climate where cars just don't rust if you look after them well!!

CheersJOHANN

-----Original Message----- From:maroachSent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 12:53 PM To: Art Wegweiser Cc:design1@santacruzind.comSubject: Re: Another Candidate for Madness

Art Wegweiser wrote:

Anybody out there want to advise Andy about the madness in which he is about the embark if he buys one of our heartbreaker coupes? (Respond to him at CC: , copy to the rest of us, please).
SUBJECT: Looking at a CS
Hi,

Recently I've been beginning seriously consider finding a CS coupe of my own, and I was hoping you could point me in the direction of any information that would help me to become informed enough to buy intelligently (I've done otherwise in the past!) I'm interested in anything that would give me history, maintenance info, and a sense of what to look out for mechanically. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks, Andy Dehus

---My two cents:

The information below refers specifically to East Coast coupes but is true for all CS's to some extent.

This list is by no means all inclusive and it paints a grim picture but a CS buyer has to know what they are looking at.

I am NOT an expert but this letter contains a lot of hard earned and expensive knowledge. In the past 8 months, it has saved three people from buying nightmares. I wish I had had it..........

==========================================================================

CS cars:

a) Mechanically - simple and cheap, it's a Bavaria. Cracked head? No problem - any big six motor (+ drive train) will fit. Zeniths carbs are troublesome but they can be replaced. Proven power train upgrades are readily available.
b) Cosmetically - pricey. trim pieces are $$$$$$$. It is a seller's market for parts.

c) Structurally: Depending on where you live, the CS can be slightly rusty, rusty, extremely rusty, or unsafe. Rust free? Hmmmmmm.

Restored? pictures and references.

Places to look for rot: (in descending order of importance)

1. A-Pillars: vitally important. Visually follow the A-pillar (door hinges) downward towards the junction of the A-pillar, floor, and rocker panel. At the front of the rocker, these all come together and make a thick sandwich. Don't be surprised if this area is rusty. A-pillar repairs are costly because each layer of the sandwich has to be removed, repaired, and replaced individually.
2. ROCKER PANELS: Car has no B-pillar so rockers hold the car together. (Note: you need to remove the black rocker "covers" to see the outer rockers.)

Three layers of steel:

-Inner: 16 ga. vertical piece, runs lengthwise, attached to floor. -Middle: 16 ga. stamped structural steel. -Outer rocker cover (not the black decor panel).

CS's collect dirt and don't have marginal drainage at best. Rockers fill with silt and rot from the inside out. If the outer rocker cover is rusty, inside will probably be an expensive mess. You can blow big money on rocker panel repair but it is a fact of life with most CS coupes.

Don't be surprised to see rust bubbles on the first and last 4-6" of the outer rocker covers. Mud/debris gets trapped inside the rockers a rots away the inner, intermediate, and outer rockers at both ends of the car.

Check both ends of the rockers: around both jack points. Rear - get underneath and poke around where the rear sub frame is bolted on.

3. SHOCK TOWERS - look around where strut attaches and there is a big brace with a hole in it. Poke around with a screwdriver. Water collects and rusts the car away. $$$$$$$$$$. Check the little "cave" - rust will come out on top on the inner fender, mud screen (follow the imaginary flight of road spray) and the vertical piece that is parallel to the tire (under cave and under brace). Open fuse box door, use flashlight to inspect. Open glove box and look to left hand side. Possible $$$$$$$$$
4. FENDERS: flat top area, also: inner seam where fender attaches to the inner fenders. Look for bondo in both places. Finally, look at the first 10" from the bottom up to the plastic grill, both sides of car. Fenders are $600 per side and have to be installed by a competent body man.

5. FLOORS Check the area in the front corner of the each front floor - this is where floors, rockers, and shock towers intersect. Lift carpets - (F&R) look where the the 5" circular plugs are.

6. TRUNK - look at rear quarters, behind wheels. Trunk floor, spare tire area, shock towers (cracks at top), rear panel at welded seam (from underneath), gas tank - rotted frame. Look at the car on a lift - use a flashlight and screwdriver. Multiply visible rust by a factor of 5 or 6. CS's are NOT cheap cars. I don't know everything but I have learned a lot in the past year disassembling three cars. These cars are gorgeous but they are a horrible impulse purchase (I know) unless they are cheap. Chances are, you'll pay the money up front at purchase for a clean car or down the road if you buy a "cheap" rust bucket. Don't pay too much at both ends.

Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

-- Marty Roach609-924-8052 (tel/fax) 1971 2800CS 1973 3.0 CSa (parts car) P.O. Box 374 Rocky Hill, NJ 08553

-----Original Message----- From:Art WegweiserSent: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 8:52 PM Cc:design1@santacruzind.comSubject: Another Candidate for Madness

Anybody out there want to advise Andy about the madness in which he is about the embark if he buys one of our heartbreaker coupes? (Respond to him at CC: , copy to the rest of us, please).

SUBJECT: Looking at a CS

Hi,

Recently I've been beginning seriously consider finding a CS coupe of my own, and I was hoping you could point me in the direction of any information that would help me to become informed enough to buy intelligently (I've done otherwise in the past!) I'm interested in anything that would give me history, maintenance info, and a sense of what to look out for mechanically. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Andy Dehus

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